scca classing doesnt make much sense to me

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erod550
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Postby erod550 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

Yes, I do agree there.
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ecam8000
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Postby ecam8000 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

Bring the MSM out. I run in STR with the S2000's. I'm not competitive with them (and they have some real talent behind the wheels) but the racing is fun. Each time I review the results, I am impressed with how well the Miata does against all cars. The driver is a big part of the puzzle. My Miata has a stock engine (other than the swap away from the 99 cast exhaust manifold). The only other mods are to the suspension and wheel/tires.

The Autocross community is a great group. I don't race to win, just to do my best. My 15 year old daughter Amanda is racing the Miata as well. She enjoys the chance to drive/race and is mastering the stick shift. She has her sights on beating me (and soon she will).

Give it a try, see how you do. There are people who build cars to a class, and there are others that "run what we brung" and have a great time.
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roninsoldier83
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Postby roninsoldier83 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

Dange wrote:oh agreed, my car is a pure blast to drive. thats why I bought it. not to win everything, but it still irks me the wrong way that they cant say put us down one level along side with the audi TT. that would make a bit more sense.

me: I would choose a msm over a NC sport anyday. stock for stock we are about equally as fast. but just an intake and exhaust puts us over the 180whp mark
and even if going for bigger power a cosworth blower on an nc automatically gets it to 225, which is damn fun linear power but that same amount of money in a msm will have us well over 240whp. and if you want to go by looks, im really not a fan of NC styling except for the super 20 and to a lesser degree the PRHT,


erod550 wrote:NB >>>>>> NC in the looks department.



Well gentlemen, I believe looks are subjective and as such, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one, as I prefer the looks of the NC over the NB. While I think the NB is clean looking, the flared fenders on the NC make it look more masculine in my eyes. Just a preference I suppose.

As far as driving both of them, well, I've driven a few MSM's over the years... they're a BLAST to drive! Very lively, yet controlled, those things are a ton of fun to pitch around, and the mid-range gained from boosting it makes for a peppy little motor. In truth, I think that car actually feels faster than it really is with it's short wheelbase & increased mid-range over the naturally aspirated motors.

With that said, the NC chassis always felt more solid to me. The car always felt planted, like it was harder to upset the chassis at the limit. It seemed like it absorbed bumps in the road a bit better than the NB, without being "soft" or losing any of the Miata's (MX-5's) handling prowess. I also prefer the 2.0L MZR motor over the old 1.6/1.8 motors, not just because they make more power (sans turbo MSM motor), but also because they feel more refined/eager to rev and have pretty linear torque curves. I would give the nod to the MSM when it comes to fun factor, but would say the NC with the sport package typically felt like a more capable machine IMO, and while I agree modding a turbo motor is always going to be cheaper than an NA motor when it comes to making more power, at the same time, for a day of hard lapping around a big road course, or pushing it hard through a long mountain pass, I would feel a bit more comfortable with the NA motor as far as reliability goes. Just my own personal preference.

This is coming from a guy who has owned numerous turbo motors over various platforms.... I LOVE the mid-range kick of a turbo motor, but don't care for increased oil temps, EGT's, added complexity (more to go wrong), and decreased knock resistance of a turbo motor, as higher IAT's & increased pressure always bring you closer to the knock threshold; you can run them richer & reduce timing advance under load in order to keep them from knocking, but in general, I'm still going to give the nod to the NA motor for being less likely to pop under more harsh circumstances.

So, to me, there's pros and cons with both, and I would be hard pressed to pick between the two.

Just my $.02
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roninsoldier83
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Postby roninsoldier83 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

Dange, after taking a closer look at the new classes, I would say I agree with you, as the MSM should probably be bumped in the class lower where it would compete with the Audi TT, BMW M3's (E36/E46) & M Roadster/coupe, Honda S2000, FC turbo, RX-8 & Toyota MR2.

Although what's funny is that if you look at the Nationals results link I posted above, those EVO's that dominated BSP, look at their times, then scroll down, and realize the top guys in the LOWER CSP class are running faster times in NA chassis Miata's, with no boost. Those guys are limited to running updated motors, most of them are running 1999-2005 1.8L motors (naturally aspirated) with bolt-ons and tuning. I've seen dynos from the guys running fully built CSP cars, with most of them making ~160-170whp max, yet they're running faster than the EVO's in the class above them making a LOT more power.

With that said, I think the MSM's running at the bottom of that class are likely more the result of lack of driving skill, not lack of car capabilities. I bet the MSM could be a lot more competitive if it was as popular as the EVO/had more dedicated drivers.


While ecam8000 (Eric) is fairly modest, the guy is down at LEAST 100whp from the S2000's in STR locally, and doesn't have nearly as much time or money into his car as they do (I believe he's still running stock sway bars if that's saying anything and a header as his only "power mod"), yet he is far closer to their times than he is willing to admit. It's pretty cool to see, as the driver really is the biggest factor in a technical sport like autoX, and Eric knows how to drive. ;) I have a hell of a long way to go to catch up to his skill level to say the least haha, but I'm looking forward to getting there. :)

With that said, I bet a MSM could be extremely competitive in it's class locally with enough prep and the right driver. You should bring your car out, I would love to see it run, and I'm sure you would have a blast!
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jamiel
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Postby jamiel » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

What ecam said, bring it out, have fun, worry about "class competitive" later. "Driver competitive" is far more important anyway.

Maybe the MSM disproportionately benefits from SP allowances relative to stock versions of other cars in ASP, (fit superawsometiresize, uber UB/BD motor option, huge power gains with ECU etc). Dunno, probably factors into it's classing though.

Post a "please class my car" thread on RMSOLO with your year, make model and mods to see where you are.

Coulda
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Postby Coulda » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14

Cant factor in power as the end all be all... something else is the MS3 has to use 3 gears to hit 60. I really dont think the MS3 is in the top of its category at all.

Weight and size is huge...you have more road to use than an evo and should be able to carry more speed through most of the corners than a heavy evo. I am not saying its fair...just saying that i could see where they are coming from. Besides...everyone likes an under-dog.


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