scca classing doesnt make much sense to me

The forum to talk about hitting cones.
User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

scca classing doesnt make much sense to me

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

so i was looking at the classing and my car according to the new rules. is well outgunned. where as you speed3 guys are basically top of your class. stock for stock my car put down 154whp at sealevel. yet they are slapping me in with STI's and EVO's that basically have twice my power.

my msm is now is ASP along with:
Street Prepared Class A (ASP)
BMW
128 & 135 (‘08-’11)
328 & 335 (‘06-’11)
Z4 35i & 35is (Coupe & Roadster)
Z8
Bricklin
DeLorean
DeTomaso
Mangusta (all)
Pantera (all)
Dodge
Stealth Turbo
Ferrari
250 (non-LM)
275
308 Coupe & Spider
330
365 Daytona GTB & GTC
Jaguar
E-type (all)
Mazda
MazdaSpeed Miata
RX7 (‘93-’95)
Mercedes Benz
CLK 320 & CLK 32 AMG
Mitsubishi
Lancer Evolution XIII & IX (‘03-’07)
Lancer Evolution X & RalliArt (‘08-’11)
3000GT Turbo
Nissan
370Z
Pontiac & Saturn
Solstice GXP & Sky Redline
Porsche
Boxster & Cayman (all)
Shelby
Cobra 289
Subaru
Impreza WRX STI (‘04-’07)
Impreza GT, WRX, & WRX Sti (‘08-’11)
Sunbeam
Tiger 260 & 286
Toyota
MR2 (all incl. Turbo) ‘91-’95
Supra Turbo (‘93.5-’98)

and the MS3 is in stx along with
Audi A3, A4, & TT Quattro
Acura Integra Type R
BMW M3 (E30 chassis) (1988-91)
Chevrolet Cobalt SS (Turbo)
Chevrolet Camaro (up to 5.0L)
Ford Mustang (up to 5.0L)
Honda Civic Si (2006-10)
Mazda RX-8
MazdaSpeed Protégé
Mazdaspeed 3
Mazdaspeed 6
MINI Cooper S & Cooper S JCW
Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
Pontiac Firebird (up to 5.0L)
Subaru Impreza WRX (2.0LTurbo, non-STI)
Volkswagen Golf, GTI, Jetta, Beetle, & Passat (2.0L Turbo)
Volkswagen R32
04MSMGT

User avatar
reconbygod12
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:14
Location: madison wi

Postby reconbygod12 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

probably took the weight of your car into consideration for the class by using the method of weight to hp ratio
2008 wrx sedan-new love
09 cwp mazdaspeed 3 GT-gone
04 mazda 6s-gone

bellalyssa
Posts: 1237
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:14
Location: NoCo

Postby bellalyssa » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

Yes... it's the weight to power ratio. There are E-Stock miatas that place upper PAX because they can get around the course faster since they don't have to slow down and they can pick up speed better.
2004 Mazda3s Hatchback: Totalled
2002 Audi A4 Avant: Sold

2013 Subaru WRX 5-door: Stage 1

User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

still doesnt make sense that a car that does 0-60 in 5 seconds sometimes even around 4.8 with perfect conditions would be pitted against a car that does the same in 6.7seconds
hell even the MSM forum guys, dont really autocross their msm's they tend to either quit autocross and go to track days, or pick up an older NA which is alot more competitive.

only thing i can be happy about is im still in bsp but my car stock was about 16.2 lbs per hp. and im about down to 11 lbs per hp
04MSMGT

User avatar
reconbygod12
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:14
Location: madison wi

Postby reconbygod12 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

i feel like seeing my class that i should autox now
2008 wrx sedan-new love

09 cwp mazdaspeed 3 GT-gone

04 mazda 6s-gone

User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

you are in a way different class. the turbo swap alone bumps you im guessing into probably at least a street modified class
as in the swapped and turboed high HP hondas, with full suspension 1000lbs less than you and hoosier race tires.
04MSMGT

User avatar
roninsoldier83
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:14
Location: Lakewood, CO
Contact:

Postby roninsoldier83 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

Well, power isn't really everything in an autoX event. Although the new ASP class is basically just the old BSP class, so not much has changed. It looks like results from nationals last year showed a couple MSM's running in BSP, although none in top half finishes, looks like the class is pretty dominated by EVO's:

http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/15171_Results%20book%20file.pdf

However, I would say that the advantage the EVO has isn't so much the power to weight so much as the 3 LSD's/ridiculous amount of traction, and the new ones with those damn cheater YAW controllers! Seriously, go test drive an EVO X sometime, it's ridiculous, the worst driver on earth can look like a total badass in that car haha.

While your power:weight ratio isn't as high as theirs, at the same time, those cars (EVO/STI) are also front heavy pigs; not nearly as naturally balanced as your MSM and their extra weight is going to mean extra wear on tires & brake pads to say the least. Last I checked, you're also running double-wishbones all around vs. their simple MacPherson struts up front (EVO's run a multi-link in the rear though). So, your car does have a few advantages.

With that said, I've driven MSM's & EVO's and stock vs. stock, I would say the MSM is more fun to drive. :) With that said, the drivetrain in the EVO makes it a lot easier to drive fast. Just pitching my STI around for a couple years spoiled me and likely robbed me of a bit of driving skill haha. Those cars are fairly dummy-proof IMO, although like I mentioned, their advantage is traction/drivetrain derived, not their power:weight ratio. If it came down to simple power/weight ratio, since you can up the boost in that class, I would say that the BMW Z4 35is & 135i should be able to murder the STI/EVO in a straight line given equal mods, and having owned, modified & tuned EJ25, 4G63 & an N54 powered vehicle(s), I'm pretty confident in that statement. They're all similar in curb weight (135i/Z4 35is/STI/EVO), but the single turbo 4-bangers can't hold a candle to the N54 twin-turbo I6 when it comes to making not only big power, but an extremely wide powerband.

Yet, the BMW's don't do well in that class.... why? The traction advantage of the AWD cars. Although unfortunately, I see why they have to put the EVO/STI in that class, as if they didn't, they would have to bump them up to a level where it wouldn't come close to being fair anymore, as they would be pitted against $50k+ dedicated sports cars like the Lotus', Corvettes, Porsche 911's ect.

With that said, as you can see from nationals results, the Mazdaspeed 3 is not even close to being the dominating car in STX... that's a wicked competitive class, and it looks like many of the top spots are being taken by the old Civic Si's haha! Although, to be fair, the old Civic's in that class likely weigh in around ~2000 lbs or so.

Just my $.02
AKA- [color="Blue"]arctic_blue83[/color]
Mine: 2015 Subaru WRX
Hers: 2013 Subaru WRX

User avatar
roninsoldier83
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:14
Location: Lakewood, CO
Contact:

Postby roninsoldier83 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

Dange wrote:you are in a way different class. the turbo swap alone bumps you im guessing into probably at least a street modified class


Yeah, just upping the boost with the stock turbo bumps a person into at least the Street Prepared class, and I'm pretty sure you're right, and the turbo swap would bump him into Street Modified:

http://www.scca.org/documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20SCCA%20Solo%20Rules.pdf

I think he would be in SMF. Although even in the Street Touring classes (in the MS3's case STX), I'm not so sure the MS3 would be very dominant. Would be cool to see though.

Locally, all the guys running SMF seem to be modified Civics:
http://www.rmsolo.org/msp_eventpts.php?rep=1_20110521SS

Most of those guys have older Civic's with double-wishbones all around, and are likely running updated motors (probably B16/B18/B20 or K20/K24 motors) and can boost them as well.... and the old Civic's are pretty light-weight (2000-2500 lbs before weight reduction). That would be a tough class to play in for a bolt-on MS3 IMO.
AKA- [color="Blue"]arctic_blue83[/color]
Mine: 2015 Subaru WRX
Hers: 2013 Subaru WRX

User avatar
reconbygod12
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:14
Location: madison wi

Postby reconbygod12 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

but its the bnr stage 3 could they really tell the difference its a re modified k04
2008 wrx sedan-new love

09 cwp mazdaspeed 3 GT-gone

04 mazda 6s-gone

User avatar
roninsoldier83
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:14
Location: Lakewood, CO
Contact:

Postby roninsoldier83 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

reconbygod12 wrote:but its the bnr stage 3 could they really tell the difference its a re modified k04


I'm pretty sure it's a Garrett GT28 cartridge... and as per SP rules:

4. Turbochargers and/or superchargers (forced induction) may not
be added, changed, or modified (this does not allow ceramic coating of turbochargers). On vehicles originally equipped with forced
induction:


Although, technically, the class that was mentioned above was the MS3 being in STX, whereas if you touch the boost, even on a stock turbo, your car is bumped out of STX and into one of the SP classes. With that said, it's only local competition, there's a good chance you could run your mods by your local competition and they wouldn't care about them & might let you run in SP without a problem. Either way, it's a hell of a lot of fun anyway! You should definitely come out, I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

Just think of it this way though, this is amateur competition, you're not competing for prizes, money or a sponsorship, so it really doesn't matter. If you were to cheat, what would be the point? You would really just be cheating yourself, and defeating the point & spirit of amateur competition. That and keep in mind that if you suddenly started dominating your class there's always a chance someone more knowledgeable than yourself may request to make a more thorough inspection of your vehicle, and I don't think anyone wants to be labeled a cheater...

Again, come out, learn a few things and just have fun. :) It's really dirt cheap fun with a car in a safe & legal environment that isn't even very hard on your car, you can't hardly beat it for the money!

Just my $.02
AKA- [color="Blue"]arctic_blue83[/color]
Mine: 2015 Subaru WRX
Hers: 2013 Subaru WRX

User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

yep ronin the results dont lie. especially when the only 2 msm's are taking 2 out of the 4 last places(technically 2 out of 3 because last place was a DNF) and evos taking 8 out of the 10 top places. its been a big issue with the msm forum since i dunno how long. we just arent that competitive in street prepared. part of why i think they score so low, is a bone stock msm is automatically classed in bsp. where as a evo can as much money as my car is worth in just mods and still be in that class too theres a big difference in 30 or so psi a tune, plus coilovers and race tires vs my 12-13psi, springs and summer tires. and more importantly a driver that hasn't been autocrossing in years.

standard miatas its a whole different story, they completely have e-stock locked down tight. granted 20 out of 29 of the cars in that class are miata so its kinda a gimmie that they will dominate that class.

and recon
when they pop your hood and see that purdy tubular manifold and the FMIC im sure they will know something is up. lowest I can see you is street prepared.
not to mention if you have any interior bits removed.
if you are running for fun. and not winning anything i doubt anyone would challenge you in SP, but you win and go to nationals. they will nitpick every single thing about your car.
04MSMGT

User avatar
roninsoldier83
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:14
Location: Lakewood, CO
Contact:

Postby roninsoldier83 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

Yeah Dange, the MSM's really seem to get the shaft in the SCCA... actually, I think that statement would be fairly true for pretty much all the NB chassis Miata's.

If you look at results, the NA chassis Miata's have E-stock on lock, and when you lightly mod them, they also do a pretty good job dominating STS. Update to a newer motor, and you'll notice they also dominate CSP... go a little overboard with mods, and they seem to make up the majority of the D-Prepared class as well.

Then you have the newer NC Miata, which seems to pretty much own the C-Stock class, and when you mod them, to my complete and utter surprise, they took STR last year from the Honda S2000, and seem to be EXTREMELY close with the S2000's in that class.

Really, the NA & NC Miata's seem to be the Miata's to have if you want to be towards the top of multiple classes, whereas the NB's are deemed too fast to compete with the NA's and just a hair too slow to run with the NC's. So, take solace in the fact that it's not just the MSM's, the whole NB chassis seems to be hard to place in the SCCA.

With that said, I would take a MSM over an NA or normal NB Miata in a heartbeat! Although, having worked at a Mazda dealership years ago, I would be hard pressed to choose between the MSM and the newer NC chassis Miata with the sport package, as there are things I really love about both of those cars. Really though, for overall driving fun, it's tough to beat any generation Miata for the price IMO. :)
AKA- [color="Blue"]arctic_blue83[/color]
Mine: 2015 Subaru WRX
Hers: 2013 Subaru WRX

User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

oh agreed, my car is a pure blast to drive. thats why I bought it. not to win everything, but it still irks me the wrong way that they cant say put us down one level along side with the audi TT. that would make a bit more sense.

me: I would choose a msm over a NC sport anyday. stock for stock we are about equally as fast. but just an intake and exhaust puts us over the 180whp mark
and even if going for bigger power a cosworth blower on an nc automatically gets it to 225, which is damn fun linear power but that same amount of money in a msm will have us well over 240whp. and if you want to go by looks, im really not a fan of NC styling except for the super 20 and to a lesser degree the PRHT,
04MSMGT

User avatar
erod550
Posts: 3764
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:14
Location: Colorado Springs

Postby erod550 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

NB >>>>>> NC in the looks department.
2015 Ironman Silver Veloster Turbo - Bone stock and staying that way
1990 Crystal White Miata - Beater - Bignose 1.6L Swap, Robbins Top w/Glass Window, E-Codes, Air Horns, Brembo Rotors

Former Rides:
2011 Kona Blue Mustang GT 5.0
2009 True Red Mazdaspeed3 GT
2005 Flame Red SRT-4

User avatar
Dange
Senior Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:14
Location: Ft carson (colorado springs)
Contact:

Postby Dange » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:14

super 20 is sexy as hell though IMO.
Image
Image
04MSMGT


Return to “Autocross”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests