Anyone have any experience with MSP's and Megasquirts or standalone ecu's? I'm doing some research to build a PnP megasquirt.
I'm working on a project that has gone through 3 engines now. The car was purchased with a blown engine and the engine was rebuilt - new crank, rods and pistons. The car ran lean then rich in boost and over boosted frequently. Did a leakdown test, replaced some plumbing, a failed wastegate actuator, and I think a few other things and didn't help the problem. All the MSP guys said that the MSP's ecu was garbage and these were typical problems. 10k later the rods bent and a piston exited the block. Replaced the engine with a junkyard block, a week later of easy driving - bent rods again.
Anyway, the engine is being rebuilt with forged internals. Its becoming obvious that the car is detonating and bending rods like mad. I want to build a PnP Megasuirt to run the engine to be in full control of ignition and fuel so we can avoid making another windowed block.
Does anyone have any experience with MSP's and standalones? The car is in a state that doesn't require and OBD check. Does anyone know what random things are controlled by the stock ecu that I would have to find a solution for? For example the Alternator Regulator Circuit, maybe the AC? Am I correct in thinking that the MSP has VDI (or something similar)?
2003 Mazdaspeed Protege + Megasquirt
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eliminster
- Senior Member
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I would recommend a piggyback solution for this as you seem to have a lot of extra stuff that would be no fun wiring up to work, you could also look to see what companies have plug n play setups for the mazdaspeed protege as they shouldn't be to hard to get to work.
87 red rx7
running 13b re cosmo motor
03 yellow wrx
yes it is a stock color
00 black s10 zr2
yes i have it to tow cars when they break.
running 13b re cosmo motor
03 yellow wrx
yes it is a stock color
00 black s10 zr2
yes i have it to tow cars when they break.
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chickenwafer
- Posts: 2515
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A piggyback MegaSquirt should be a good solution if it's just managing fuel and spark. I would think a MegaSquirt as a full standalone in a modern OBDII car would be a bit a letdown.
Unfortunately I don't have much experience with MSPs other than they go zoom zoom boom more frequently than FDs and the stock ECU is a major culprit in motor popping.
It looks like you have a pretty good handle on things though, post up some progress pictures when you start to work! If you need a hand, let me know.
Unfortunately I don't have much experience with MSPs other than they go zoom zoom boom more frequently than FDs and the stock ECU is a major culprit in motor popping.
It looks like you have a pretty good handle on things though, post up some progress pictures when you start to work! If you need a hand, let me know.
Sooooo.. I was going to create a write up about how build and install a Megasquirt 1 V3 ecu on a mazdaspeed protege as a piggy back system... but it was so easy.. I don't know if it would be worth the effort.
Here is an overview of what was done:
1) build a megasquirt per the instructions provided in the MS Assembly guide ( http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm ) I had a spare Megasquirt laying around so this was easy.
2) add these resistors for ignition output (this is in wasted spark mode)
3) tap into power, ground, and sensor wiring at the stock ecu. The MSP has a 36-1 missing tooth crank trigger so I used this instead of using both the crank trigger and the cam trigger. I also installed 2 additional gm coolant temp and air charge temp sensors instead of tapping into the stock sensors. I did this to avoid having set up the MS for non-gm sensors. (its not too difficult, you change a bias resistor and generate a sensor map using EasyTherm. I don't know if that is the same procedure for MSII or later ecu's)
4) Cut the wires to signal wires to the fuel injectors and to the coil packs and reroute them to the megasquirt. The injectors will be batch fired so there are 2 injector banks coming from the Megasquirt and each of the banks will signal 2 injectors. The coils are arrange in wasted spark mode so again you will have 2 outputs from the MS to signal ignition on the 2 coil packs.
5) input settings and start her up.
Before this the car threw engine codes and would run 10AFR's or richer any time manifold pressure got anywhere near atmospheric. It also popped the original engine, 1 junk yard engine, and one rebuilt engine. now its happy as a clam running 13lbs of boost and doesn't throw codes. The stock ecu still controls everything else including the pesky ecu controlled alternator.
one warning: make sure you get the spark output inversion correct. I believe I started with output inverted and nearly melted a pair of MSP coils. If they start getting hot while the key is on but not running.. then you probably have it incorrect.
Here is an overview of what was done:
1) build a megasquirt per the instructions provided in the MS Assembly guide ( http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm ) I had a spare Megasquirt laying around so this was easy.
2) add these resistors for ignition output (this is in wasted spark mode)
3) tap into power, ground, and sensor wiring at the stock ecu. The MSP has a 36-1 missing tooth crank trigger so I used this instead of using both the crank trigger and the cam trigger. I also installed 2 additional gm coolant temp and air charge temp sensors instead of tapping into the stock sensors. I did this to avoid having set up the MS for non-gm sensors. (its not too difficult, you change a bias resistor and generate a sensor map using EasyTherm. I don't know if that is the same procedure for MSII or later ecu's)
4) Cut the wires to signal wires to the fuel injectors and to the coil packs and reroute them to the megasquirt. The injectors will be batch fired so there are 2 injector banks coming from the Megasquirt and each of the banks will signal 2 injectors. The coils are arrange in wasted spark mode so again you will have 2 outputs from the MS to signal ignition on the 2 coil packs.
5) input settings and start her up.
Before this the car threw engine codes and would run 10AFR's or richer any time manifold pressure got anywhere near atmospheric. It also popped the original engine, 1 junk yard engine, and one rebuilt engine. now its happy as a clam running 13lbs of boost and doesn't throw codes. The stock ecu still controls everything else including the pesky ecu controlled alternator.
one warning: make sure you get the spark output inversion correct. I believe I started with output inverted and nearly melted a pair of MSP coils. If they start getting hot while the key is on but not running.. then you probably have it incorrect.
I also added used 3 - db15 connectors 2 males, 1 female so I could unplug the megasquirt and plug the stock ecu back in if there was ever a need to. this could come in handy for upgrading or repairing the megasquirt.
EDIT: you also have to add a resistor inline on the VE- wire from the crank position sensor to the megasquirt.. other wise you will loose tach signal. I used a 1/4 watt 10k resistor.
EDIT: you also have to add a resistor inline on the VE- wire from the crank position sensor to the megasquirt.. other wise you will loose tach signal. I used a 1/4 watt 10k resistor.
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719_protege
- Posts: 41
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good info man. i have a msp with a built block, split second, all kinds of other crap, gonna run e85, might consider using megasquirt instead now though. hows it running with it? what benifets does it have over split second or something similar? id love to check it out
2003 mazdaspeed protege:
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Its very happy under boost.. although it now torque steers like a mother 
Currently it just has a very rough tune on it and will go to a professional tuner before long. It also currently stumbles when you blip the throttle.. this will be resolved with tuning of acceleration enrichment.
I don't know much about Split Second but it looks like a typical piggyback controller. What I built is more of a parallel ecu. A piggyback typically modifies the inputs to the stock ecu so it is tricked into thinking that it should run less timing or more fuel. The megasquirt does all its own calculations and uses speed density to calculate fuel. It also allows you to create your own spark timing maps so you could run a larger timing advance instead of only retarding the timing.. this may be useful with e85 since you'll probably need a more aggressive timing map. It also allows you to run what ever fuel injectors you want.. you will probably need bigger ones for e85. other benefits include launch control, electronic boost control, water/meth injection control, rev limits, overboost control.. at one time megasquirt even supported a crude traction control system. all these options require some additional circuitry to be built.. but its all well documented in the MSExtra Manual.
The downfall is its probably going to be harder to get a good tune compared to a piggyback. with the megasquirt you will have to tune warmup enrichments, acceleration enrichments, generate a timing map, a fuel map, ego driven corrections. You pretty much end up with a full standalone ecu.
EDIT: MS also allows you to data log every engine parameter.. that includes AFRs and EGT's if you hook up an EGT probe.
Currently it just has a very rough tune on it and will go to a professional tuner before long. It also currently stumbles when you blip the throttle.. this will be resolved with tuning of acceleration enrichment. I don't know much about Split Second but it looks like a typical piggyback controller. What I built is more of a parallel ecu. A piggyback typically modifies the inputs to the stock ecu so it is tricked into thinking that it should run less timing or more fuel. The megasquirt does all its own calculations and uses speed density to calculate fuel. It also allows you to create your own spark timing maps so you could run a larger timing advance instead of only retarding the timing.. this may be useful with e85 since you'll probably need a more aggressive timing map. It also allows you to run what ever fuel injectors you want.. you will probably need bigger ones for e85. other benefits include launch control, electronic boost control, water/meth injection control, rev limits, overboost control.. at one time megasquirt even supported a crude traction control system. all these options require some additional circuitry to be built.. but its all well documented in the MSExtra Manual.
The downfall is its probably going to be harder to get a good tune compared to a piggyback. with the megasquirt you will have to tune warmup enrichments, acceleration enrichments, generate a timing map, a fuel map, ego driven corrections. You pretty much end up with a full standalone ecu.
EDIT: MS also allows you to data log every engine parameter.. that includes AFRs and EGT's if you hook up an EGT probe.
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719_protege
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:14
- Location: Cosprings
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cool sounds like what i was thinking. i understand the difference between the 2 for the most part, just seeing if there was anything weird on ms for proteges for any reason, seeing as you are i think the 2nd person i have ever heard of running it. i was planning on going haltech anyways, but megasquirt is much more affordable so thats what interests me. timing was something i was worried about with the ss, and the fact that its only a 16x16 table so i cant tune past 16psi which sucks. are you able to get rid of the maf and just use a map sensor with ms3?
2003 mazdaspeed protege:
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Yeah, with Megasquirt you don't need a MAF.. but I left it on the car so it would be easy to swap back and fourth from the stock ecu. I would bet that the stock ecu would throw an engine code if it did'nt see the MAF, however It may be possible to trick it into thinking its still there.
I've used 5 different standalone ecu's and by far my favourite is megasquirt. The documentation available for MS blows everything else away. And for the price of a used AEM.. you can build like 5 Megasquirts.. which oddly is about how many I've built.
I've used 5 different standalone ecu's and by far my favourite is megasquirt. The documentation available for MS blows everything else away. And for the price of a used AEM.. you can build like 5 Megasquirts.. which oddly is about how many I've built.
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719_protege
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:14
- Location: Cosprings
- Contact:
what did it cost you for the whole install of megasquirt? i am very tech savvy, but im not an expert at building that kind of system. would you be interested in helping me build and install it if i throw you some cash?
2003 mazdaspeed protege:
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
with sensor bungs, and 2 new sensors, and welding materials (shouldnt be necessary if you use the stock sensors) it was less than $300. I mean it really comes down to assembling a $200 Megasquirt kit, a few feet of wire, a few connectors and miscellaneous wiring supplies. I'm sure we could work something out.
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719_protege
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:14
- Location: Cosprings
- Contact:
i for sure wanna get this done, what all cost you $300???? im about to have my car back up and running soon, and i want to push more than 16psi that the ss limits me to
2003 mazdaspeed protege:
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
Custom front mount intercooler, SSQV, corksport 60mm exhaust, coolingmist stage 1 methonal injection, splitsecond fuel timing controller, aem uego wideband, 6000k hids, cant remember the rest...
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