Which wheels drive you?

[RX-7 Chris]

It does not matter how many wheels drive the car it is just as hard to shop. Also 4x4 truck tend to plow in the turns in snow. That is the problem.

[arctic_blue83]

Well Tim, you mentioned this past year there were 4 days you couldn't get out in the RX-8?!? Guess how many days I couldn't get around in the STI? None. Not a damn one, and when I did get out in the snow, I was able to easily, and safely drive 15-20mph faster than the rest of the majority of traffic was moving. AWD is not invincible in the snow, but it damn sure helps. I worked on a Mazda lot for quite a while, and drove a couple Miata's & RX-8's in the snow... granted they had summer tires on them... could I probably get most places I intended to go in the? Sure, I guess, depending on how severe the snow was... but I would have to drive a hell of a lot slower to get there than I would in a FWD or AWD car.

I owned a 350Z up here... and on most snow days, I could get around... but I had to drive pretty slow in comparison to my Speed6 & STI. I had to watch my throttle input more closely, couldn't make sharp transitions, ect. It sucked, and even on winter tires, on a large patch of ice, my Z was almost useless... maybe you like doubling your commute time due to a car's inability to find traction in the snow, but I for one enjoy not having to slow my speed down to a crawl on a snow day... and I hate to break your heart, but I have been to a few heavy snow areas in my STI that my Z would just flat out not move, not even on snow tires, just sit there spinning tires... partially because of ground clearance (STI is a little higher off the ground), but mostly because of it's RWD drivetrain's inability to find traction.

As far as performance cars having to be RWD, that's a crock of shit, and several performance car manufacturers would argue that point.... case in point, Lamborghini's "super-car" offerings are only offered in AWD... are they not "sporty" enough for your tastes? How about Audi, their flag-ship sports car, the mid-engine R8 is AWD, not to mention all of their S & RS model cars... or maybe Nissan, who now makes one of the fastest car's on Germany's famous Nurburgring, only coming in behind a couple of cars that cost several times what it costs, that's right the GT-R, last I checked, it was AWD... performance cars are only RWD my ass. It's been proven, a well setup AWD car can be just as fast on the right course, and in many cases faster. A lot of performance oriented AWD cars do have a natural RWD bias though, being heavily RWD, but being able to apply power to the front wheels in the event the car gets out of control... like my STI, which has a default split of 41/59, more RWD than FWD, and with the DCCD, can transfer over 90% power to the rear wheels... AWD with a RWD bias FTW!!

For a sports car there are a TON of advantages to be had from an AWD configuration... obviously, from a stop, at a light or at a track, you're going to get a better launch... the only exceptions being RWD cars running on slicks/drag radials & built suspension. Have you ever driven a sporty AWD car around a tight track? You have no idea how early you can get on the gas coming out of a corner, much sooner than more RWD cars, without the rear end going wide, giving you a HUGE advantage when it comes to EXIT SPEEDS. Which is why every year since the WRX has been released, it has taken the top podium spot at nationals in the STX class. Rather than putting power down via 2 225 wide tires, limiting you to around a total of 450mm worth of rubber to stick to the ground, you can put power down to 4 225 wide tires, for 900mm worth of rubber... at lower power levels, it's not as much of a factor, but as power levels rise, the advantage grows for an AWD car... you also realize that a popular sport these days is rally racing.... well, I don't need to say anymore.

Tim, the RX-8 is a great car, handles wonderfully, and is a blast to drive... but I think before you, or anyone else on here bash AWD, you should actually drive a sporty AWD car, as I think you'll change your mind pretty quickly. Like that old saying goes "don't knock it until you try it", and since you haven't owned an AWD car, maybe it's a good time to check one out, to see the advantages they give, as they are substantial. I've owned a 1 FF car, 1 FR, 1 MR car and 3 AWD cars... after owning each drivetrain configuration, I can say that AWD, when done correctly, is my drivetrain of choice... although RWD cars, especially MR cars, are damn fun to drive. Just my $.02

[RX-7 Chris]

Do you know how many days I had to park my car, none. I even bought chains for the car and never used them all winter.

[MazdaTom]

I don't think I've ever seen a passenger car with chains on in the city. And only a small handful in the mountains.

[MazdaTom]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ May 1 2008, 04:00 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43959]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

I was able to easily, and safely drive 15-20mph faster than the rest of the majority of traffic was moving. AWD is not invincible in the snow, but it damn sure helps.[/b]

You can see some of that AWD mentallity coming out right here. 15-20 mph faster than traffic on a dry, clear, sunny day isn't exactly "safe". Cover the ground, and most people's windows, with the white stuff and it's even more unsafe.

[GR-8]

I gotta say/ask one thing. Why do people who have 4WD assume that they will be fine in the snow. Sure the 4WD system will kick in but only when you start slipping. Why not just turn that little button during harsh, mushy, slick conditions and lock it into 4WD?

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ May 1 2008, 04:20 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43964]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

You can see some of that AWD mentallity coming out right here. 15-20 mph faster than traffic on a dry, clear, sunny day isn't exactly "safe". Cover the ground, and most people's windows, with the white stuff and it's even more unsafe.[/b]

Excuse me? You have no idea what you're talking about... maybe you don't live off of Arapahoe Rd... where your average commuter in the snow tools around at about 10-15mph in a 55mph zone in snowy weather... or the people who do 30mph on 470 in the snow... you're crazy if you think I can't drive 15-20mph faster than them SAFELY in snowy conditions. People can't drive worth a piss, honestly, the only reason I can't drive 15-20mph SAFELY in the snow, is because of idiots pulling out in front of me, or getting in my way. People get panicked in the snow, and drive at a fraction of the speed limit. If I can get around them, to where I have open road in front of me, YES, in fact, in most cases I can easily drive 15-20mph faster than your average tool of a commuter, SAFELY, without ever coming close to losing control of my vehicle. Granted it doesn't hurt that last winter I ran studded snow tires, and the STI's DCCD is one of the most advanced traction devices on the market combined with Subaru's symmetrical AWD.... now, obviously, I'm not going to turn/corner 15-20mph faster than most people but I have no problems driving considerably faster than most people in the snow without losing control...

Another note, a couple years ago, C&D did a test, the EVO vs the STI... one part of the test, they ran them 0-60 on dry pavement, and then, they soaked half the track and ran them 0-60 again.... the EVO added about .5 seconds onto it's 0-60 time... the STI.... not one tenth. In wet conditions, it found traction and ran the same time as it did on fully dry pavement. This winter, I'll slap the studded snows back on, and take you for a ride down a snowy back road, maybe then you'll understand. I've driven my AWD WRX, my AWD Speed6, and various AWD & 4WD trucks & cars over the years, none of which compare to the STI with studded tires in the snow... you can't appreciate, or understand what I'm talking about until I take you for a ride, then you'll understand a little more. The only real limiting factor in the snow with it, is ground clearance

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Greek8 @ May 1 2008, 04:41 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43970]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

I gotta say/ask one thing. Why do people who have 4WD assume that they will be fine in the snow. Sure the 4WD system will kick in but only when you start slipping. Why not just turn that little button during harsh, mushy, slick conditions and lock it into 4WD?[/b]

Actually, Subaru's are full-time AWD... not some shitty FWD w/RWD assist that most companies try to pass off as AWD... an Impreza/WRX have a DEFAULT 50:50 lock at all times... the STI's is 41/59... and many of their autos are 45/55.... so, it depends on the car.

[RX-7 Chris]

They do now but they didn't a few years back. My mother-in-law's legacy sucks in the snow. It will slide for about 5 feet before the awd kicks in.

[MazdaTom]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ May 1 2008, 05:01 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43971]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Excuse me? You have no idea what you're talking about...[/b]

I've got a few more years and a few more miles under my belt than you do. So I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ May 1 2008, 05:01 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43971]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

the only reason I can't drive 15-20mph SAFELY in the snow, is because of idiots pulling out in front of me, or getting in my way.[/b]

Exactly my point from earlier.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ May 1 2008, 05:01 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43971]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

If I can get around them, to where I have open road in front of me, YES, in fact, in most cases I can easily drive 15-20mph faster than your average tool of a commuter, SAFELY, without ever coming close to losing control of my vehicle.[/b]

Not exactly in "traffic" anymore if you have open road ahead of you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ May 1 2008, 05:01 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43971]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Granted it doesn't hurt that last winter I ran studded snow tires, and the STI's DCCD is one of the most advanced traction devices on the market combined with Subaru's symmetrical AWD....[/b]

Thanks for the commercial.

[Stealth01]

[SpeedRacer]

Tampon time already for the both of you huh? Go figure same time of the month for two of our boys...

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ May 1 2008, 07:49 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43985]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

I've got a few more years and a few more miles under my belt than you do. So I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.[/b]

Really? How many of those miles were spent behind the wheel of an AWD Subaru on studded snow tires? Maybe an STI specifically? Or how about an AWD car (not some top-heavy SUV, but a car) just equipped with snow tires? That's right, probably less than me... so no, I'm afraid I've got quite a few more miles under my belt than you do on this matter. I'm not going to tell you about the limits of your Protege, or what it's like to drive it daily, and I won't presume to know it's limits, please don't assume you know the limits of my car on studded snow tires in the snow, as that's an area that I have much more experience in.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ May 1 2008, 07:49 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43985]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Exactly my point from earlier.[/b]

I said I could typically go about 15-20mph faster than the rest of traffic was moving.... didn't say in traffic, I thought you would have been bright enough to read between the lines on that one Tom... apparently I gave you too much credit. Obviously, if there are cars all around me, and I have nowhere to go, no shit I can't go faster than anyone in those conditions, but on I-25, or 470, when the majority of traffic stays to the right, I easily travel at 15-20mph faster than the majority of traffic on the right in the snow, and have not come close to losing control of my vehicle or endangering others... you had no point from earlier, you misinterpreted what I wrote, and misconstrued it to portray me as saying something I didn't say...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ May 1 2008, 07:49 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43985]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Not exactly in "traffic" anymore if you have open road ahead of you.[/b]

Read comment above.... it's happened a multitude of times on my way to work, headed south on I-25, traffic piles up, the majority of which in the right lanes.... traveling 30-35mph or so... if I can get to the left lane, and it's fairly open, I can pass them doing about 40-50mph with ease. Never coming close to losing control of my car... without endangering anyone else.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ May 1 2008, 07:49 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=43985]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Thanks for the commercial.[/b]

You're welcome. I'll throw this one in for you "It's what makes a Subaru, a Subaru" Seriously Tom, I like you, you're a bright guy with a good amount of driving experience, but I think you took my first post out of context, and didn't receive the message I was trying to convey. I used the word "traffic" to describe other cars on the road, but if you would like, I can edit my post to say/reflect "your average driver on the road", as that's the point I was trying to get across. In my STI, in the snow, with studded tires, and this nut behind the wheel, I can safely travel faster than the majority of other drivers (not all, but the majority), in other cars on the road. That's the point I was trying to make. Is that agreeable to you Tom? Are you happy now? If not, please feel free to PM me, and we can discuss this further

[SpeedRacer]

What no quote to my tampon comment?

[Stealth01]

Any car on studded snow tires will do decently in the snow. But studded snows here are impractical, since the roads aren't snow-covered more than about 10 days a winter. Regular snows should do.